Hey, Bold Leaders. Today, we are here with Dr. Michelle Mazur from the Rebel Rising Podcast and the author of not just one book but three books and the book that we’re most interested in or at least that I’m most interested in talking about right now is her current book, the 3 Word Rebellion. Hey, Dr. Michelle Mazur. Welcome to the podcast.
Michelle Mazur: My gosh, Tara. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
Tara Newman: Michelle is a member of The BRAVE Society. As you know if you are a long time listener to my podcast, we do conversation episodes. I like to think of them as co-hosted Michelle and not necessarily like interviewee, interviewer based.
Michelle Mazur: I love it.
Tara Newman: Michelle is a part of The BRAVE Society Community and that’s one of the reasons why she’s here but she’s also here because her work has profoundly affected my work. I really love when those things come together and I want to talk about this here today. Michelle, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work?
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, I run a company called Communication Rebel and we create 3 Word Rebellions, which is a one of a kind message that grows your business by positioning you as like the only person who can do what you do. That is the business side of me. The personal side of me is I have three cats. One of whom is like running around like an idiot in the background right now so that should be fun and I live in Seattle with my amazing, amazing husband who, we like to go and drink Craft Beer together.
Tara Newman: I love it. I think one of the things that was most profoundly impacted me about your message was to give me the realization that I live my life in open rebellion to most things.
Michelle Mazur: Me too and I have to say that’s an okay way to live your life because a lot of the things that we see, I mean, in the world, in the online business world should be rebelled against.
Tara Newman: Yeah, we’re going to go there actually in a big way because there were some points that you hit in your book that really, really spoke to me and I just want to share them because they’re a true testament of the type of leaders that I’m building in the world. The type of leaders that you’re looking to help in the world. The type of leaders that are in the Brave Society and I think it’s so important that we … how do I say this because I don’t want to talk about, “Let’s talk about this, let’s talk about this messaging.” This concept of polarizing.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: Tell me where you stand on the topic of polarizing.
Michelle Mazur: I believe polarization is a good thing in the online business world. I believe it’s the thing that allows you to stand out. I also believe it’s the thing that allows you to double down on what you believe your values and your own unique point of view because if you see something that feels wrong and it’s that kind of that intuitive gut feeling of like, “Oh why are people doing it that way. That doesn’t feel right,” then that gives you something to talk about and it also gives you the opportunity to create change or at least create a space for other people who believe like you do. Polarization, I’m all for it and I think that is the way that we stand out and we show up as ourselves and what we believe in.
Tara Newman: I agree but I realized that I tend to polarize by standing in the middle of two poles.
Michelle Mazur: Are you trying to blend them together or something else?
Tara Newman: I’m trying to be the voice of reason in a world that I think has gone half mad with extremes.
Michelle Mazur: That is true. I mean, and I could see taking up that middle ground because the pendulum does swing like, especially for what I do in communication. For so long we’ve been in this era of like dude, bro marketing where it’s that abuse of Cialdini’s persuasion tactics, abuse of NLP to really do unethical marketing like marketing and sales that force people to buy because of fear and I fear that it’s going to swing back to the pole where we don’t do any of that and here’s the thing, those tactics are fine when they are used ethically, they can actually help people make decisions but only when they’re used ethically with the consumer’s best interest in mind.
Tara Newman: Yeah, that’s where I stand so I feel like I’m in the middle, right, like you’re unpolarizing by standing in the middle of two poles sometimes but I want to talk about, what is … let’s first back it up and say what is a Three Word Rebellion?
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, a 3 Word Rebellion is a simple succinct curiosity provoking message that really encapsulates the change that you want to create for your audience. It’s very audience-focused, versus my business focused.
Tara Newman: Yeah, you gave some really great examples in the book. You gave Black Lives Matter, you gave Mel Robin’s Five Second Rule.
Michelle Mazur: Yup.
Tara Newman: You gave Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again, even though we know that you don’t think he’s great but you think that, let’s just put them out there.
Michelle Mazur: Yes and actually, I end up giving like a big ethical critique about that message in my book.
Tara Newman: I got your back. Michelle is not taking a stand for Trump. She’s just saying that his message fits the criteria.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, because it is a message that was calling his right people in and told them exactly what to do, he gave them a place to belong and he presented himself because I’m not going to say he is. He presented himself as like the person who could get this change that those people so desperately wanted which was to go back in time to a place where … Apparently everything was perfect, if you are a white.
Tara Newman: Yeah. What I actually really, really love about the story … You told a story in the book and it was how you came up with the Three Word Rebellion and I love that story for so many reasons so can you compare that?
Michelle Mazur: Yes, of course. I came up with the 3 Word Rebellion at a time in my business where I was completely burned out and I had wrapped a season of my podcast which then was the Rebel Speaker. In my business, I had been exclusively working with speakers and I had fallen into the trap of that the only thing people will pay money for is things that make them money. I spend a lot of my time on that podcast sharing messages about like how to get paid for speaking. How to fund a speaking gig. How to market yourself as a speaker and all of that work felt so solace to me. It was terrible. It felt like I wasn’t making a difference and my big why behind why I even have this business is that I believe that communication changes the world.
Michelle Mazur: I left that why somewhere in the middle of Missouri, on the side of the road. That why was nowhere to be seen and worst for me too is that I felt like I could be replaced by a Google search. No one wants to feel like the impact they’re making can be easily replaced by Google. Yeah, if you Google, how to get paid for speaking, you’ll probably find me there.
Tara Newman: That’s so fascinating.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah and I just couldn’t … I couldn’t keep going on like that because I knew that I wasn’t making a difference that I wanted to make. My clients were amazing people who are getting great results but I wasn’t talking about the thing that I wanted to talk about. During that Christmas of … I guess it was 2017, I just was like, Okay, what am I going to do, like what am I going to do? At that time, it was strange because I felt like there was something big trying to come through but I didn’t know what it was. What I found was I started just … I’m kind of a politics junkie. I really enjoy watching the news and thinking about politics which sometimes isn’t the best for my mental health.
Michelle Mazur: I saw all the rise of the social movements and it just struck me at like how well they were able to summarize what their message was about in just a few quick words. Whether it was Me Too or Black Lives Matter, Make America Great Again. Then, I realized that the people that I admired and loved as business owners could do the exact same thing like Mel Robbins and the five second rule or Simon Sinek and Start With Why. I was like, wow, they’re pretty much doing the same thing and both of those people have something that they’re rebelling against in the work that they do. I’m like, “Interesting, I wonder if I can take some of those questions from social movement theory like, what are you rebelling against, what are you moving away from, what kind of world do you want to create and give them to my clients, let them write on it and can I find their message?”
Michelle Mazur: That answer was yes, and more quickly than I could have ever imagined because free writing was just letting them get it all out on to paper where we could see what their beliefs and values and strong opinions were and from there, I just started playing with it and told a friend about this idea that I had and she was like, “Oh, Michelle, it’s so good, you should write a book on it. You should call it something like the Three Word Speech.” I’m like, “No, not quite there yet.” I’m like, “What should I call this thing, the the three word something.” I believe that your message already exist, your Three Word Rebellion already exist and of course, it’s like in my branding.
Michelle Mazur: My company is called Communication Rebel. It’s like, “Oh yeah, this is the 3 Word Rebellion.” That’s how it was born. I sat with it for a while. I did a webinar, probably a month after I have the idea like fully formed to get people … to see if people resonated, if this was something that was useful to them and there’s been no looking back since.
Tara Newman: One of the things that I’ve also taken away from you because I’ve said like we’re going to have this conversation, there’s some things, I want to talk about and I do want to share how you have influenced my thinking and my business over the last few months as I’ve dug into your podcast, into your book, having you in the Brave Society and what I love about what you did is that you utilized your gifts and how you created this. You are a researcher, you have a PHD.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: Right, and it’s evident in everything that you did when you came up with this. You went and you researched these catchy messages or whatever like what made people feel like they belong here, what was it about them, “Oh, they have three words.” Then, you went and dug into these people’s messages and you did that deep dive so your clients don’t have to.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, exactly.
Tara Newman: You’ve done the research, you know why this works. That’s one. Two, you are a researcher and since you are in the field of communication and I’m in the field of psychology, kinds … squishy things, how do you measure squishy things qualitatively, right?
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: What you did was you now have walked your clients through qualitative analysis, where not to get free, right, but you have them writing and now, you’re going and you’re pulling out the themes of their writing. That’s qualitative analysis.
Michelle Mazur: Yup.
Tara Newman: The reason why they can’t do that for themselves is because they don’t understand qualitative analysis like you do or like I do, right? This is why I’m into journaling. I call it journaling. This is qualitative analysis people, right? What we’re telling you is journaling. That’s what Michelle is doing here and I really love that. What you taught about me which might be a little meta because I don’t think it actually came out of your book, is I’m not dumbing down my message anymore.
Michelle Mazur: My gosh, yes.
Tara Newman: Can we talk about this for a second, because there are people who are doing this. They’ve been taught to do this. My first business coach, we’ll not mention names, did not understand what I did. She didn’t understand what it meant to have a masters degree in Industrial Organizational Psychology and she kept telling me that I was a life coach and she kept questioning, every time I spoke, when I said things like strategy or strategic. When I said things like results or she really questions, she’s like, “Does your ideal client talk like that?” I don’t know who she thought my ideal client was but specifically, what she was saying to me was you need to dumb down your message.
Tara Newman: What I’ve decided to do instead and I think I talked about this in my CEO debrief in the Brave Society was I’ve decided that I have the most intellectual, smart, business savvy, killer bee business instinct business owners who follow me.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: You need something dumbed down, if you need to be spoonfed, you are in the wrong place. I can’t help you because that is so frustrating for me and so it’s finally really allowed me to own that part of my messaging and to say listen, this is how we talk here.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, and what’s really sticking out to me is that smart people, the people who are more intellectual, if they don’t understand something, they ask, they do the research, they figure it out so there is no need to dumb it down, since my home methodology is based in qualitative research, I have a chapter in the book where I’m like, “Surprise, I’m teaching you about research.”
Tara Newman: Right.
Michelle Mazur: I’m going to go in thinking, assuming that you will be able to do this with some practice and if not, you will get help, you will ask questions because that’s what people do when they want to learn something. It’s okay not to know but it’s not okay to stay in that not knowing or to expect the person that you are following or learning from to like dumb down their message so that you don’t have to learn.
Tara Newman: Yeah. I want to talk very … only for a second because I struggled with my messaging for probably 18 months and I was circling the messaging drain of hell. I didn’t know whom would I want to talk about it, is because this is true, this is real, this happens and it happened to me for a number of reasons that I can go back and identify now and I want you to kind of speak to the kind of person that you help because if I found you when I was going through this, my life would have been a lot easier. At the time, when I … I had 20 years of experience, a masters degree, when I started to look at how I could be leveraging the internet to build my business. I wound up in this free Facebook groups where people were like, your message has to be summed up in 10 words or less and it has to follow this formula of I do this so that, whatever-
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: Right.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your unique selling proposition kind of formula.
Tara Newman: PS, you have to make it catchy and sexy, you have to really grab people and all that really happens is, is you get very confused and it was so interesting that when I … and you and I talked about this that I say, I work on my messaging everyday, obsessively, I don’t know for good or bad, that’s what I do. I was really going around the rabbit hole and how do I come up with 10 words and how do I make it sound really sexy and how do I stand out when everybody else is saying this and nobody understands leadership and how do I explain that because I need to dumb it down and like, “Jesus, how do you dumb down leadership? That’s like the antitheses of what leadership is,” right?
Tara Newman: It was such a struggle and then I go back and I read things that I’ve written years and years and years ago because I’m a researcher and I catalog and chronicle everything. It’s funny because wherever I go, there I am. I’m saying the same thing over and over again, maybe tweak it slightly. To your point, you do know your message.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, for sure.
Tara Newman: Right, it’s just kind of have to get picked out and all the gobbledygook. I know you talk a lot too about people coming to you when they’re in transition but what are some of the other pain points people are feeling because I want everybody in the audience to check in and to see if you have any of these pain points.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, obviously, people in transition, you’re pivoting to a new audience. You’re pivoting … you’re offering a new service, there’s something that is different about your business so pivots are big. Also, when you know you’re offering something really, really amazing, that gets great results, and the people who buy in love it but you’re not getting enough leads into the business because you don’t know how to talk about it in a way that can attract like a writer audience. That is a big sign. I just worked with a really unique, like there’s such a unique fitness studio because it’s not just about working out and nutrition. They teach habit formation and they coach you and they give you a community and support.
Michelle Mazur: They’re like, people are confusing us with 24 hour fitness. This should not be happening. It’s because they had something that was transformational. They barely have any churn in their business but they just weren’t getting the leads because they didn’t know how to talk about it and show how they were different without a 30 minute conversation. That’s another sign that you could use some help. Another pain point is when your audience stops growing. I often call this, the true believer problem, is that what ends up happening is you get to a certain point in your business and all of a sudden your growth plateaus, and usually what I find is people are talking to their hell yeses and never talking to the people who are curious but not sure or unaware and would probably be open.
Michelle Mazur: You’re just not having conversations with them. Everything has plateaued in your business. Then, there’s other things like, you’ve taken courses in the past and they just haven’t worked because you always get stuck on that messaging module or whether that’s Facebook Ads or a PR class or a business course, you keep taking these courses and you keep getting stuck at the same point. That is definitely something else that I’m seeing in my business quite a bit right now.
Tara Newman: I really love that point because I have this belief that the trend we’re about to start seeing is anybody who hasn’t that horrible word that everybody hates, niched down and really what that means is get really specific around how you serve, who you serve and how you … what your unique gifts are to the world and how you represent that.
Michelle Mazur: Yup.
Tara Newman: They’re not going to have a business, we’re going to, at some point … we are at the point where we are so saturated that it is all white noise, that you have to do something to stand out and that doesn’t mean you have to be horribly aggressive in how you polarize which is what I think has been taught in the past.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: Right?
Michelle Mazur: Yeah.
Tara Newman: Anybody who is kind of generalizing in their business so these business coaches that do all the things, right? Then, they’re going to help you with your marketing and they’re going to help you with your messaging and they’re going to help you with your mindset and they’re going to help you with your planning and they’re going to help you with your sales. It’s like, but none of that stuff gets a focus. If you are having any of the problems that Michelle has mentioned you want to seek out somebody who can specialize in that area because they are going to be the ones to help you move forward the most.
Tara Newman: We’ve had this conversation actually in Brave where, I think a lot of people think they have a sales problem, meaning, they don’t know how to sell and I think really, what they have is a lead problem and when you break that lead problem down even further, it’s a messaging problem.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah. I totally agree with that because messaging … I mean, number one, your message is working for you 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I mean, that’s why people stick around on your website. That’s why people engage with you on social media. It’s like the work horse of your business but yet we don’t spend a ton of time on it which is a shame and then we’re not really evaluating that message. Is it reaching the people? Is it written for the people that it most wants to impact or is it that kind of generalized water down message. I feel like a lot of sales … or we can’t communicate the value of what we do, right? We’re so in our heads about it with all the different thoughts and my gosh, I have to convey everything I do in order to get people to work with me when that is absolutely not true.
Tara Newman: I think the worst thing anybody can ever do is to apply a formula to their message.
Michelle Mazur: My gosh. Yes, because I mean, first off it’s a recipe for boring, right?
Tara Newman: Well, it’s recipe for this is what everybody is saying.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: How do you stand out, so everybody who buys into these … Michelle, I’m going to go there.
Michelle Mazur: Okay.
Tara Newman: Anybody who’s buying into these mass programs, right, that are churning out graduates at 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 people where there’s no personal help or approach, there’s no personalized approach in any way … this is so bad for a whole so many reasons but think about then you’re coming out, you’re “graduating” from these programs with the same formula as the other 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 people.
Michelle Mazur: Yup.
Tara Newman: How do you stand out? You don’t. Do not do that with your message and listen, there are some things you can 100% do that with. I believe.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, for sure.
Tara Newman: There’s certain competencies and skills that you need to learn, like for example, how to communicate better. We have a soft skills course on communication, how to communicate more effectively with your team, right, great. You can have a formula for that. You’re still going to tweak it to how you communicate best I believe but you can get something out of that. In terms of like your message which you’re relying on to have you stand out to attract your people and to put money in your pocket because I think it’s funny that Michelle decides that everything is about … she was going away from everything being about how to make money but really, your messaging is how you make money.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, it is but it’s in that indirect way and like I do a lot of consults for my one on one work and most of those people have taken some big name class or they took like … one of the things that really takes me off are these branding experts. You have a course and they spend one week on your message. I’m all like, that is not how you’re going to find your message, not in any universe, spending one week in a branding course on the message. Then, yeah, that really takes me off, because my point is, this is the most important and deepest work you will probably do in your business.
Tara Newman: It’s your foundation.
Michelle Mazur: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Tara Newman: It’s the stage in which you set your leadership.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, exactly and in the book, I also talk about the fact that we as an industry have like abdicated leadership, like we just don’t lead. We’re just all about the money and we’re not actually … people are not … not you and I obviously but people are not stepping in to their leadership role and being that leader of a movement, of change, of transformation. It’s like this vacuum that’s happened in the online world where like a shiny marketing gets all the attention but those people really just want to make money. They don’t really care about each individual in that 20,000 group, that takes a program so they’re not leading, that’s the rant.
Tara Newman: Yeah. Well, yes. Which brings me to my absolute favorite page in the book, and this is only going to be my favorite page. You’re all going to have your own favorite pages for your own reasons but we’re going to go there because this is my favorite page and it’s probably the page that Michelle put in there and was like, I was going to realize, I put this in there. Page 30. I, state your name, solemnly swear that I will only use the three word rebellion for good.
Michelle Mazur: I love that page too.
Tara Newman: As someone who had to sit through, graduate ethics and solemnly swear to use only … use psychology, only for good.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: Who, I am so principled when it comes to my ethics and my integrity that it cost me money but that’s okay because that’s how I know it’s a value.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: This made me so happy, can you share with me like what your why was for putting it in the book and what the intention was and the outcome you hope to achieve by having it there?
Michelle Mazur: Yes, so I am very similar to you with ethics and integrity and I taught persuasion at the undergraduate level of at the University of Hawaii and we spent a whole week talking about the ethics and when to use persuasion especially like the Cialdini clip were and LP type techniques and when not to use them and it’s a really gray mushy area but at the end of the day for me, it comes down to this intent that we have, is my intent here to do good for my clients, do I have their best desires in my heart as I talk to them, as I use persuasion or are my needs ahead of theirs. If my needs are ahead of theirs, then that to me is not ethical at all. I don’t think we talk enough about ethics because it’s so funny because like Robert Cialdini’s book Influence spends like a whole long chapter on the power of these techniques and the ethics and how you should use it ethically.
Michelle Mazur: I feel like every online business marketer who touts his work skipped that chapter and that is not okay because this stuff is very powerful. It can be used for good, it can be used for evil and as leaders, we need to be examining the impact that our communication has on people. We need to examine our intent behind what we’re doing and how we’re using persuasion so that we are doing good in the world and we are doing good by the people who are following us.
Tara Newman: Yup. We had a class, we had, in graduate school. We had classes on persuasion too because it’s psychology.
Michelle Mazur: Yup.
Tara Newman: Right, it’s the psychology of how people communicate, receive messages, act upon them. It affects people’s behavior and that’s probably one of my biggest complaints when I see … in this online space, because I have clients that are not in the online space. They’re about 50/50 and what I see happening in this online space is that people are being taught marketing … I’m going to try and piece this out. You’ve got coaches.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah.
Tara Newman: Then, you’ve got internet marketers who are calling themselves coaches, for example.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: Right? It’s being used in a way that is very confusing to people because as a small business owner you have to market.
Michelle Mazur: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely.
Tara Newman: Right, but you have a craft that you are marketing. You have an actual skill that you are marketing, like I am marketing the fact that I develop leaders.
Michelle Mazur: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tara Newman: Right, you’re marketing that you help people communicate.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: You have a craft but when we have people who are marketing the fact that their craft is persuasion and manipulation, I need people to check in, right, because there are people who are doing that and there are people who are doing it ethically.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, absolutely.
Tara Newman: Who have the right intention behind it and then there are the people who haven’t really thought this through and they’re like, “Oh I could teach you these tricks and they work and they’re going to make you money.”
Michelle Mazur: Yes, and people are like, “That sounds awesome.”
Tara Newman: Right. It gets a little frightening for me when I see people taking to the masses what some of the things that they’re learning in places where I know they’re not having a conversation around ethics and using these tactics responsibly.
Michelle Mazur: Exactly. Exactly. It scares me too because … I mean, and I see the ramifications of this like people spending thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars on programs they don’t really need and they never completed because they were afraid of missing out, right? My gosh, if I don’t do this now, this is the silver bullet that’s going to cure everything for my business because that’s how it’s marketed. That’s not true and that message is actually pretty harmful. I’ve seen abusive testimonials in business, where they’re like, “Oh look at all these great result, these people got from taking my course but hey, I’m not going to tell you that these are all my mastermind students and you got to pay way more money if you want that results.”
Michelle Mazur: I just think, “Oh my gosh,” and people are buying into this because those of us who are doing the work ethically around sales and persuasion and marketing, we’re not getting like the … like we don’t get the fast ascent of when you’re just like manipulating in the masses, like we don’t … like I’m hoping we can start getting the fast ascent with the Three Word Rebellion because there are business owners who are doing that stuff ethically but that’s what’s out there and that’s what they see so they’re like, “Oh yeah, I got to take this.” Then, they get in on the class and they realized the class is either a mess because people don’t know how to teach or that they get stuck in the same places they always get stuck and then once again, they threw like three grand out the window.
Tara Newman: I remember reading an email that taught Herman Scent once and he was promoting a friend of his and he said, in the email, and you know he’s the real deal because his marketing is crap. I was like, “Oh nailed it,” right? If you’re the real deal and you feel like your marketing is crap, I want you to go talk to Michelle so she can help you create your own rebellion. You wrote something … I got to touch on this now too, because there’s so much in this book. You wrote this and I honestly think that I had a full body reaction to what you wrote and you’re probably saying and go, “Oh my God, what did I say.” It happens to me all the time. People are like, “Oh they really hit me.”
Tara Newman: I’m like, “What did I say?” If you don’t think you’re a rebel because you think you’re a creator or innovator and just want the world to be a better place, here’s a rebel truth, you must destroy in order to create.
Michelle Mazur: That is true and if you are in any transformational business, you have to destroy in order to create. Two systems cannot exist at the same time and for people who do coaching, you can’t have your old identity and a new one, you have to destroy that old part of you in order to create the new. That is part of rebellion. It is part of social movements. We have to destroy the current system in order to put in a system that is better for the people. I’ve had a couple of conversations with people that are like, “But I’m just not a rebel, I’m a creator,” and I’m like, “Sorry, no. If you are truly a creator, then you have to destroy in order to create.”
Tara Newman: It’s like when people tell me, they want to help people and that’s why they get into coaching, I’m like, “Really,” because half of the time, I’m saying stuff to people that I’m fairly certain, I’m going to get decked, I get flipped off, I get cursed up. My clients flip me off, they curse at me, like the other day, I had one client who’s having a legitimate anxiety attack because we were having a conversation. If I was going to be overly compassionate, I couldn’t do these things. I couldn’t have these truthful honest conversations that actually move somebody to that next level because if they want a cheerleader, if they want somebody validating them all the time, go find a friend, go find a mother, go find a partner or something but that’s not my job as a coach. My job as a coach is to hold you to the growth that you said you want to claim.
Michelle Mazur: Exactly, exactly and I feel the same when I’m working with people because I see like how their BS gets in the way, like I just started working with someone, we haven’t even had our first session yet. She’s like, “I don’t know if I can actually get this. I can get two or three word rebellion.” I’m like, okay wait, hold the phone, let’s talk about this because you are doubting the process before we’ve even started and you’re making a decision that this isn’t going to work. I love how you always talk about that there’s power when we make a decision. If we’re going into this work and you’re making this decision already, guess what it’s probably not going to work.”
Michelle Mazur: We need to figure out what’s happening with you so that we can remove that block, that BS that you’re telling yourself so that you can move forward in your business, in getting your business to where you want it to be, having that impact, making the money you want to make but if you’re holding on to those self-sabotaging doubts and thoughts and all of that, let’s try to clear some of that out so that you can … so I’m setting you up for success versus more frustration so yeah. I’ve got to, in some ways destroy the person who thinks like their message is too complex or it needs more words than it needs or that they doubt everything or they need to change it up every five minutes like those are all the things I’m always destroying and the people that I work with to help them create the growth and the business and the impact they want.
Tara Newman: I really want people to settle in for a second because there is a lot of bullshit in the professional growth, personal development space but this is a truth, you must destroy in order to create and it is the most vulnerable, exhausting, prolifically frightening thing that leaders have to do to tear down something they’ve already created, already invested in, may already be working to change direction and to create something new to evolve past where they are today. That’s growth and I really want people here … and you talked about this in your story in the beginning, where I we were just like, sisters from another mister when you said this, because you actually talk about this.
Tara Newman: You talk about being in the … I think you were in the bathroom, you were out to dinner with your husband and you’re in the bathroom and you’re having this come to Jesus moment with yourself in the mirror of the bathroom where you’re like, “Oh my God, I have to do this. This is a thing, it has to get done. I have to destroy so that I can create and I have no idea if this is going to work but I know this so certainly in my body, like this …” I’m paraphrasing, these aren’t your words but you knew it so certainly that you just marched forward and then the thing you did next is sleep.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, because I have to tell you this idea of like fully form came through, it exhausted me.
Tara Newman: Yes, it does.
Michelle Mazur: I knew … Yeah, I knew it was a big thing. I knew it was mine to deliver. It had chosen me and it scared the crap out of me because it was going to kill off the business that I currently had or change it. It was going to probably change my life. I mean, this is really for me, my thought leadership piece and I fully believe that this is going to be a very big thing and here I am being the steward of this very big thing and that’s not where I was at a year ago or like a year and a half ago when this first started formulating in my head so I am very much in this process of destroying the old Michelle, bringing out a new Michelle and probably destroying some of the new parts of Michelle as well along the way to evolve to what’s next.
Michelle Mazur: That is hard. I think that’s why messaging work is so hard because it is this like deep meaningful conversation, requiring you to double down on who you are and that means you have to let go of what was working in the past and I’m still in the process of letting go of what worked in the past.
Tara Newman: I hear you and I think I shot you a message that when I was reading through this, like I was getting so many signs.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: When you say, you work with people in transition, what I want people to hear is this is not a bad thing. We’re always evolving and in some space of transition and I’m starting to talk about that I’m going through a transition that I’m stepping deeper into my message that my confidence, has grown and grown and grown and grown and now, I’m ready to do the work that I’ve always been meant to do which means I have to re-look at my message. I have to re-look at my audience. I have to re-look at who I’m talking to. I’m going through this, right now so what I want people to understand is you can be successful and be in transition.
Tara Newman: You will always be in a state of becoming that next version of yourself when you are ambitious, when you are here to do your best work, when you are here to lead a movement and you are here to change the world around you. I say change the world around you because some people want to change the world and some people want to change their community and we’re talking about some people want to change one person and watch that ripple effect. It’s all the same when we talk about changing, speaking and your messaging and changing the world, don’t immediately opt out of that because it sounds too big.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, yes and I talk about that in the book like change occurs at different levels and you get to decide what level you want to impact and … but change is change, the transformation is still the same, you still have to create or destroy in order to create, you still have to step into a leadership. I mean, this is really a book about transformation and stepping into that role of saying, yes, I’m a change making business owner. Yes, I am here for a person’s transformation and industry’s transformation, the world’s transformation but that’s what I’m here for.
Tara Newman: Yeah, I love that you … again, soul sisters, so you talk about it being the battle cry.
Michelle Mazur: Yes.
Tara Newman: I love how you don’t shy away from it being a battle cry.
Michelle Mazur: No, because that’s what it is, specially if you’re giving people an action to take. I mean, the reason we know about Simon Sinek today is because he’s told the world to start with why, it is so ingrained in our brain, it’s such a simple message and yet, he’s telling us exactly where to start and then he’s also creating this little bit of curiosity in our head, this gap of like, what the heck is my why anyway and it’s become a part of our culture to talk about start with why and I love that, because it’s such a simple clear message that is also very curiosity provoking and yeah, it is a rallying cry. It’s saying like, “Hey, if you want to do business differently, come over here, follow me.”
Tara Newman: I very much like align with the concept of like that whole warrior woman that when you take a stand for something, you do it in a way that is … puts you in command of what you’re taking a stand for and that you’re very bold in how you do it, that you’re unapologetic in it and I think that this is a place where people … that’s why I so appreciated you calling it a battle cry. You didn’t soften it up because maybe going to battle might offend some people, right or like, maybe being that passionate, it might just be too much. No, it is a battle cry. We are going to war for what we believe in and that’s okay.
Michelle Mazur: Yes. Yeah, it is absolutely fine to say let’s change this, let’s rally the troops together and let’s go to war against whatever this thing is that we are rebelling against so that we can be the architects of the change we want to create in the world.
Tara Newman: I have this theory that if you’re not prepared to go war for your message, you will not be successful. It is not the right message.
Michelle Mazur: I agree because here’s … this has been my own personal transformation so before the Three Word Rebellion, I had a program called Speak For Impact and I love that phrase. That’s a pretty decent Three Word Rebellion, right, speak for impact, it’s a rallying cry, it kind of encompass the fact that I wasn’t about selling from the stage that it was more of a relationship that I wanted to create with the audience and speakers and yet, I always knew that that kind of, wasn’t quite right but I just went with it because that was what’s in front of me at the time and eventually, when these whole three word rebellion came, I was like, “Wow, I am so jazzed to get up every morning and to talk about this.”
Michelle Mazur: “I want to get it in the hands of as many people as possible and I’m going to do whatever it takes because I believe in this message, I believe in this message and its ability to transform people, to help people, to help people who are doing good work, get more of that good work, make more of that impact in the world.” All of a sudden, it’s not about me marketing my business or me, showing up. It is like, I have a healthy detachment from my message which sounds pretty strange but for me, it’s about being a steward of the message itself, like that is what it’s about. I want it to go have a life of its own out in the world, but right now, I am the steward, I am the conduit and it’s so easy for me to show up and talk about it every single day because I am willing to go to battle with this message.
Michelle Mazur: I am willing to do whatever it takes to get it out into the hands of as many people as possible.
Tara Newman: One hundred percent agree with you because I … the thing that gets me out of bed everyday is my message.
Michelle Mazur: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Tara Newman: When people want to know like how do you stay motivated all the time, when do you wait for inspiration, how do you find … It’s no, like my message, I get out of bed everyday to read the message.
Michelle Mazur: Yes. Yes and then it becomes easy because I think … I went on a rant this weekend about how when people say, you are your message.
Tara Newman: My God, I wanted to talk to you about this, I saw this, yes.
Michelle Mazur: It’s one of those platitudes that we hear all the time. We’re like, yeah, of course, I am my message and then I thought about it and I’m like, “Oh no, no, no, no, no. That is horribly limiting,” because if you and your message are that intertwined with each other, when somebody says, no, to your message, you take it personally, they’re saying no to you, they’re rejecting you or they say, “Oh that’s stupid.” They’re not calling your message stupid, they’re calling you stupid and I think when we are that entwined that we are our message, that it limits the impact that we can actually make because now, it’s personal, it’s personal and people don’t like it.
Michelle Mazur: Whereas if you have this more healthy detachment, where it’s like my message is like the thing that’s going out into the world, I’m wishing it a life of its own. When people reject it, they’re rejecting the message. I think it also allows other people to be the messenger of that message because Simon Sinek, he does not start with why, like that dude is promoting a course right now that he is not even teaching about start with why. His faculty that he works with are teaching that course because he is not his message and it’s a much better way to go through your life, is to not be your message but to be that conduit, to be the creator, to be the steward. It would be like a mother saying like I am my children. That’s unhealthy.
Tara Newman: Yup. That’s one of the best things I ever did in my business was rebrand from Tara Newman Coaching to the Bold Leadership Revolution. Yup, for so many reasons I get it but that was one of them.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, because all of a sudden when you are not your message, it’s like, “Well, people don’t like it, that’s cool, like other people will and it’s not about you,” so I find that messaging that you are your message so very dangerous. On the other side of it is that for an audience, that message needs to be about them at the end of the day and not about you. The message, if you want to create change, has to be for them and not you as the central figure so once again, limiting growth.
Tara Newman: Right, so that was the other reason why I changed the name of my company from Tara Newman Coaching to Bold Leadership Revolution because it’s not about me, I don’t ever want it to be about me. It’s about creating more bold leaders in the world.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, exactly, exactly.
Tara Newman: Highlighting and lifting up and standing shoulder to shoulder with other bold leaders. I’m not even a factor. I’m a coordinator.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, like I am the facilitator. I often tell my clients, I’m a doula for their message, like …
Tara Newman: I love it.
Michelle Mazur: I’m just sitting there like helping you with this birthing process and pointing things out to you, like did you notice this? Did you noticed that you say this word 27 times in this writing. Maybe that’s a really important word for us to explore.
Tara Newman: I love it. All right. I want to take us out here and wrap up this episode but what I want to do is I want to ask you to share one thing that people listening to this right now, aside from going and buying the three world rebellion book, which I highly recommend, go buy the three word rebellion book because again, Michelle, sister from another mister, creates it when you can write in it, it’s like a workbook, right? That’s one of the best things about it. It breaks everything down so succinctly, she takes you through all these fantastic exercises, it’s not information. It is really here for … the book is here for transformation.
Tara Newman: It’s here to be applied. That is one of my biggest issues with books is that people read them for information and then they don’t go on and apply them but Michelle’s created something that helps you apply what you’re learning in the book so the Three Word Rebellion which you can get on your website …
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, you can get it from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository so it’s …
Tara Newman: Yeah, all over.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, all over but yes, and drmichellemazur.com/book as well.
Tara Newman: Right, so let’s give them, if they were to just take a small bite right now because I like people to finish these episodes and go take action or apply one thing, what can we have them apply?
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, so I would say, take 15 minutes and take out your journal, write at the top what am I rebelling against.
Tara Newman: Yes, that’s what I hope what you would tell them to do.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, because just write and keep writing until it’s all out of you and just don’t care about grammar, spelling or political correctness or if you swear, just get it all out on paper, because that is really the starting point for finding your three word rebellion and it will produce a ton of content for you, like tons of it as though that is the perfect starting point.
Tara Newman: What are you rebelling against? That has become one of my favorite journaling prompts.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, mine too.
Tara Newman: As a matter of fact, Stacey Harris who produces my podcast, she’s like, I don’t know, I think you need to do a podcast episode on what you’re rebelling against on this thing and then on this thing and it’s really funny because it works, it really gets you fired up and excited and it gets out of you all the things that you’re holding back for whatever reason or another so it is a great journaling prompt so please do take 15 minutes and then I want you to head on over to Instagram and I want you to tag, I want you to share it and tag Dr. Michelle Mazur who’s at Dr. Michelle Mazur on Instagram and you can tag me as well at the Tara Newman because we would love to really hear what you’re rebelling against and cheer you on.
Michelle Mazur: Yes, absolutely. I always love when people tell me what they’re rebelling against.
Tara Newman: Thanks so much for giving us your time Michelle.
Michelle Mazur: You are so welcome Tara. This is an amazing conversation.
Tara Newman: If this conversation was interesting to you and felt unique and a little different, I want you to do me a favor, I want you to take me up on my invitation to join the Brave Society. If you’re a female small business owner. This is likely your community. If you’re resonating with this podcast and the things we’re talking about over here, because they’re very much the essence of how we talk, about things in the Brave Society. The Brave Society was founded on three basic principles. One, community. How can we come together and become a marketplace of business owners where we can do business together, where we can open doors for each other, where we can collaborate with like-minded, credible business owners. Two, nobody should ever short change their leadership development.
Tara Newman: I see too many times women spread thin, making investments in their businesses as they grow and short changing their leadership development. I’m here to solve that problem. You can make the investments that you need to make and say your marketing or your branding or your website and develop yourself as a leader. The third thing that we come together for is to really stand at the pinnacle of our leadership, which John Maxwell talks a lot about in his work and he says that we’re at the pinnacle of our leadership when we are a leader who develops leaders, who develops leaders. What I ask the women of Brave Society to do is to take what they learn in this Brave Society.
Tara Newman: Bring it into the world, into their communities, into their families, into their clients and their customers and to really continue to develop more leaders on this planet. If this sounds interesting to you, I want you to go over to the show notes and click on the link or you can come find me on Instagram, @thetaranewman and ask me any questions you need to about joining the Brave Society. If you found this podcast valuable, help us develop more bold leaders in the world by sharing this episode with your friends, colleagues and other bold leaders. Also, if you haven’t done so already, please leave a review. I consider reviews like podcast currency and it’s the one thing you can do to help us out here at the bold leadership revolution HQ.
Tara Newman: We would be so grateful for it. Special thanks goes to Stacey Harris from Uncommonly More who is the producer and editor of this podcast. Go check them out for all your digital marketing and content creation needs. Be sure to tune in to the next episode to help you embrace your ambition and leave the grind behind.
Important links to share:
Connect with Dr. Michelle Mazur
Get your copy of 3 Word Rebellion
Follow Dr. Michelle Mazur on Instagram
Listen in on CEO Debriefs and Get 10 BOLD Questions for your own debrief.
Help more Bold Leaders find this podcast by leaving a review on iTunes
